Eric Foner is regarded as one of the foremost historians of the country. DeWitt Clinton Professor Emeritus of History at Columbia University in New York, Eric Foner has published numerous books and articles on American political history, the history of race relations, and the early history of the Republican party. His latest book, The Second Founding: How the Civil War and Reconstruction Remade, focuses on the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments, the constitutional changes that modeled equality into the country’s foundation. I spoke with Eric ahead of his book event this Sunday, September 29, with MSNBC’s All In host Chris Hayes:
What is your take on the famous 14th amendment clause “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” and the birthright citizenship question in general. How do we apply the language of these historical legal texts to the modern world?
It is abundantly clear that the authors of the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which preceded it in establishing birthright citizenship, intended the “jurisdiction” clause to exclude Native Americans subject to tribal sovereignty and children born in the US to the wives of foreign diplomats. In all other cases, the status of the parents did not affect the citizenship of the child born in this country. The 14th amendment certainly confers citizenship on children born in the US to undocumented immigrants – the subject of much controversy today.
President Trump has expressed interest in eliminating the 14th amendment with an executive order – which sounds preposterous, until you think about the composition of the Supreme Court… Are you in any way worried about these amendments being abolished by the Trump administration?
As the old saying goes, “the Constitution is what the Supreme Court says it is.” In view of recent decisions that seem to blatantly ignore what the framers of the Reconstruction amendments were hoping to accomplish (notably Shelby County v. Holder) it would be foolish to assume that the current Court will revoke an executive order by the president abrogating the first sentence of the 14th amendment so far as children of undocumented immigrants are concerned. If the last part of the 19th century proves anything, it is that constitutional rights are not necessarily safe in the hands of a conservative Supreme Court.
Were there any New Yorkers who influenced the writing of these constitutional amendments?
New Yorkers did not have much impact on the Reconstruction amendments. Senator Roscoe Conkling was on the Joint Committee on Reconstruction, which draftted the 14th Amendment, and had some impact on its language. He later told the Supreme Court that the Committee intended to include corporations within the category of “persons” entitled to due process of law. This was invented by him out of whole cloth, but the Court accepted his argument, giving a constitutional meaning to the old idea of corporate personhood.
NYC is home to many historical sites from the Civil War era. What’s a little known site or story involving NYC and the Civil War that you wish more people knew about?
The home of David Ruggles on Lispenard Street is a site that more New Yorkers ought to know about. Ruggles, a free black man, was founder of the New York Vigilance Committee, which helped numerous fugitive slaves who passed through the city gain their freedom, and tried to prevent the kidnapping of black people off the streets of New York for sale into slavery, as sometimes happened in the 1820s and 1830s. One fugitive was Frederick Douglass, who stayed at the house briefly on his way from Maryland to New Bedford, Mass. I think it is fair to say that the Committee was part of the early history of the underground railroad.
In a world of “alternative facts” and “fake news,” what do you think is the role of the historian today?
There is as much fake history around today as fake news. The job of the historian is to present as accurate and up to date view of American history as possible, in a style accessible to a broad public, and to counteract the numerous historical myths that circulate on the Internet and elsewhere. We should also point to parallels between today and other time periods; right now many people are interested in comparing the overthrow of Reconstruction and retreat to Jim Crow with the backlash today against many of the changes our society has undergone in the last half-century. History does not give us the answers to our challenges but it can help us approach them in a knowledgeable manner.
Eric Foner will sit down with MSNBC’s Chris Hayes this Sunday, September 29, at St. Joseph’s College in Brooklyn for the launch of his new book, The Second Founding. Tickets include a hardcover copy of the book. Click here for event details.