Are science and religion fundamentally incompatible? Marcelo Gleiser, a theoretical physicist at Dartmouth College, doesn’t think they should be. Gleiser, specializing in particle cosmology, nonlinear physics, and astrobiology, is also the recipient of the 2019 Templeton Prize, an annual award granted to a living person who “has made an exceptional contribution to affirming life’s spiritual dimension, whether through insight, discovery, or practical works.” He often writes and speaks about the intersection between spirituality and science, urging scientists to not categorically deny something they have no evidence against.
This Saturday, November 9, Gleiser will be speaking alongside religious leaders and other panelists at Lincoln Center’s White Light Conversation on Religion. The panel will address the contradictions in our understanding of religion in an increasingly secular society. I spoke with Gleiser ahead of the talk about his take on the science vs. religion debate…
Albert Einstein wrote of having a “cosmic religion” or a “rapturous amazement at the harmony of natural law, which reveals an intelligence of such superiority that, compared with it, all the systematic thinking and acting of human beings is an utterly insignificant reflection.” In a recent interview, you also stated that atheism is inconsistent with God and encouraged tolerance, open-mindedness and humility in the face of nature’s greatest mysteries. Why do you think it’s important for scientists to be more unbiased about religion and spirituality?
There are several reasons. One is that science itself is limited in its reach; we can’t know everything, and don’t even know what questions we will be asking tomorrow. This should call for humility from those who seek knowledge. Another is that religion is not just about belief in a God or gods. It serves an essential social purpose, especially for more economically challenged populations. It gives them dignity, a sense of belonging and shared community. I’ve seen this growing up in Brazil. I find it very presumptuous of anyone, scientist or not, to believe that he/she can dictate how someone else can/should live his/her life. Third, there are many ways to think about a spiritual connection to the world. Einstein, which you noted, had such a connection. Many scientists do, within more traditional religions or not. Science is about describing the natural world in the best way we can. It has very little to say about Belief.
In your blog, you wrote that “in order to reach a larger audience, to bring the wonders of science to a much larger slice of the population, we must start from the youngest age with an outstanding science education, filled with wonder and discovery. We have to complement the passion people direct to their faith with an appetite for wonder about the natural world and our place in it. We have to teach that science has a spiritual dimension—not in the sense of supernaturalism, but in how it connects us with something bigger and grander than we are.” Are you proposing that schools incorporate religion and/or spirituality into the curriculum? Do you believe that secularism in schools is inhibiting our children’s sense of wonder and awe?
I’m not proposing that schools should teach religion, although there is nothing wrong with teaching religion, given its essential role in the history of civilization. There is a difference between evangelizing kids and teaching them about religion in a historical and cultural context. Nothing wrong with the latter. In fact, it is necessary in a liberal arts, humanistic context. But you can instill a sense of wonder and awe without any reference to religion. This is what I refer to when I write about the Mystery that surrounds us, the obvious fact that we know so little about who we are and about the ultimate nature of reality. There is excitement in the course of knowledge of all kinds, an excitement that I call out flirt with the unknown.
What role do you think psychedelics – like the mushroom psilocybin – play in the origins of our belief in God? Do you think nature was pre-engineered with God?
Wow, a big jump from psychedelics and a designer God! I think psychedelics, undergoing a resurgence even in therapeutic practice now, open our perception to aspects of reality that remain hidden to us in our everyday life. That has little to do with an active God who engineered Nature. I don’t see evidence for such a God, and prefer to embrace the fact that there are unknowables out there that inspire us to engage in the pursuit of knowledge. Perhaps psychedelics make such unknowables more palpable, thus triggering a deep sense of spiritual longing in users.
Since 1990, the fraction of Americans with no religious affiliation has almost tripled, from about 8 percent to 22 percent. Some projections estimate that by 2030, one third of Americans will identify as non-religious. How do you think the increasingly non-religiosity of mankind will impact our scientific pursuits?
I think the two are connected. The more science explains the world, the more people feel disengaged from traditional religion. It need not be this way, but it is. In part, this is due to a certain rigidity of religious dogma; it is also due to the abstract nature of faith in an increasingly materialistic world and lifestyle. But more secularism will not influence science in a negative way at all. There is plenty of room for non-religious wonder out there.
When did you start thinking about spirituality and the benefits of faith? What sparked your interest in the intersection between science and spirituality?
I have always been connected with Nature in spiritual ways, even as I moved away from more traditional religious faith. This became a strong part of my personality as a teenager, when I understood that modern science deals with mysteries that are much older than science itself, questions of origins, of the nature of reality, and of our place in the universe. These questions are essential, and need a pluralistic approach, coming from different ways of knowing. As Tom Stoppard once wrote, “It’s wanting to know that makes us matter.” It is this urge that makes me wake up with a smile everyday (or almost).
Meet Marcelo Gleiser tomorrow, Saturday Nov 9th at 3pm, at Lincoln Center’s White Light Conversation: Let’s Talk About Religion. Details here.